Sorry to comment twice. But are you actually real? Like a human with breath and a beating heart? You don’t fundamentally understand that difference here? These people are fighting, the “demonstrations” in America have had zero bite, and any real fight in them has been squashed by their own people. You HAVE to see that.
And did what? They didn’t disrupt anything. Parades on weekends are good for raising awareness, I’m not going to say they are useless. But they are fundamentally different from the other examples given.
Gotten shot and killed by lowest-bidder wannabe cops, who faced zero consequences. And our wannabe dictator said there would be no consequences for killing protesters. The reality is living conditions aren’t bad enough yet for most people to be willing to risk that.
So as it turns out, violence and fear tactics do work…
I’ve often been surprised at how living in America is perceived by the world. I’ve met a lot of people from all over the world, and while some have actually spent enough time here to understand the good and the bad. The rest who have not seem to believe in the shiny veneer that we export in our movies and television.
We are absolute wage slaves here. We are one missed paycheck from homelessness. But sure, blame the slaves for not overthrowing their owners.
I dont understand the logic though so please help me here. I have lived in the US and do have a good idea of how shitty things are (or were even back then). Things will not improve by inaction and are objectively getting worse. So yes, you risk a lot by acting but if you dont your life will continue to get worse and you’ll end up homeless anyway. Or worse.
No one is coming to save you. You live in the most powerful country in the world. Nobody is going to come in and liberate you. Your only option is to save yourself.
Nobody is claiming it will be easy, simple, or clean. But what other option is left? This is why the rest of us are baffled. Especially since the US has built up the reputation of having a rebellious spirit. Where is that spirit now?
This might be it, because you do pay change for the better with blood, the history is filled with it. The army is brought in, it goes overboard and they open fire on protesters, in every country everywhere throughout history, before people realise what’s happening.
I know that. No one is saying you as an individual need to do this right now. We are saying you need to organize. I think this is a cultural misunderstanding.
When I say ‘you’ I am not referring to an individual. Im referring to you as a people. Maybe that misunderstanding is evidence of the hyper individualism your country has subtly snuck into your lives that prevents you (again a collective you) from doing so.
Yeah, because they’re all too busy enacting fascism in their own country to do anything about the growing US threat except lick boots. Save us? Lmao you better be thinking about saving yourself once the consequences start rolling in.
Strategically, the best option other nations have to solve the American Problem is to prepare to weather the storm and let the country collapse by itself.
Historically what’s going on now with the US is a pretty straightforward “fall of the Empire” scenario (the biggest Empires invariably fall from internal problems as the generations that created the Empire are replaced by generations which know nothing more than wealth extraction) and interfering with that is a great way to be targetted as a scapegoat by the falling empire’s elites and suffer the side-effects of that empire’s death throes.
Looking from the outside, even if Trump is stopped, the problem will at best be delayed since the other party of the Power Duopoly that controls America is also deeply corrupt and done their part in the decay of that country for the last couple of decades (by weakening unions, deregulating Finance, unconditionally saving big companies, having Financial and Economic policies which reward Rentierism above Work, and so on) - Trump is not the malaise that’s killing America, he’s a symptom of that malaise and removing him will not solve the problem, will not stop another one like him to take over in the future and will not alter the trendof decay, only the speed of it.
As for the idea that Fascism is taking over in other countries, well, the rest is well behind the US in it and it’s exactly the point of the OP that people in other countries are already starting to push against it, well before it gets to the level seen in the US of jackboots (for the US that would be ICE) going around arbitrarilly arresting and even killing people.
Seriously. The global ultra rich are all working from the same basic playbook. It’s just happening here first due to the extreme concentration of wealth.
“No one is coming to save you” is such a petty, disgusting thing to say when the people you’re looking down on are being turned into the cogs of a machine that has the entire world in its sights. The world needs to save itself from us.
You are wage slaves who have a higher standard of living than the other wage slaves that are exploited in order to enable the availability of cheap consumer goods which keep the people docile.
This is about the English (and written in 1882) but now also applies to the USA:
Engels wrote: “You ask me what the English workers think about colonial policy. Well, exactly the same as they think about politics in general. There is no workers’ party here, there are only Conservatives and Liberal-Radicals, and the workers gaily share the feast of England’s monopoly of the world market and the colonies.”
This is an expert from Lenin: Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism which I think should be read prior to Settlers if only to disarm the reader from defensiveness. Sakai didn’t invent the idea of the bourgeoisie proletariat, he was building on the ideas of others.
Yeah, in America control is done with Circus & Bread, with the “Circus” being not just Entertainment (which includes “Faux News”) but also hyper-consumerism, whilst the control via “Bread” being with things like Private Healtcare and Student Loans.
People run around happily being shafted (and not even in a good, sexy way) as long as they have the latest smartphone and claim they pay much less tax than Europe whilst paying for the by far most expensive Healthcare and Higher Education in the World (both in average being actually worse - worst healthcare outcomes and most universities also worst - than in other countries).
How many Americans are actually politically aware and willing to fight for their rights?!
Mind you, some of this shit has been exported and at least here in Europe adopted to quite an extent, though clearly nowhere as much as in the US, though not for lack of trying.
I don’t think the US can be said to be exerting imperialist power over the Chinese though. China is probably the place least vulnerable to the US trade sanctions, for example.
Imperialism is the export of capital and the import of resources, profit from capital and labour.
Protests are not the only option, but when asked why Americans are not making meaningful resistance the argument always boils down to: We have protests! Or We can’t protest!
Perhaps the most cursory look at why these actions are successful in different countries is worth a gander. It’s not that France couldn’t crush every protest with their military.
The difference is the US 100% will and won’t even apologize for it. Then the state oligarch run media will say they were “Terrorists”. Hell, the black lives matters protests in Oregon they spent weeks showing the “devastation” the protesters caused, it was like one square block and they had police dressing like protesters instigating the violence so they could disappear people.
News are circling around the 3% (some are allegedly undercover cops, some are from fascist groups, and more ofc.) that break things, so yeah France is doing the same thing. No talk about why, only about that poor person that got their window smashed. 24/7.
Mainstream media are doing exactly the same in France and they all belong to, oh wait, some right wing billionaire.
It’s almost like someone somewhere is showing the user manual to the others.
Edit: It’s even worse than that. They are saying all the bad guys are extreme leftist from LFI (the most successful left party), gouvernement is somewhat implying the same and some officials even said they should remove this party from power and the upcoming presidential election. They are trying to make the opposition illegal and pave the way for the Fascist. It’s a fucking shit show, of course we need to riot and burn the system, that’s the only thing they are afraid of.
But a genuine comment because people think I’m a big meanie:
It’s helpful to know that folks aren’t alone and also helpful for orgs who are already doing things to improve the material conditions of their community to get some publicity and maybe some new helping hands.
Maybe then america will realize they have power, and the revolution might not be exactly the same as their last one
I think you might be misunderstanding my comments or maybe I’m misunderstanding yours because I am very lost.
I added the “protests aren’t totally useless” thing as a way to combat defensiveness after I replied to the top level comment comparing recent US protests (such as No Kings) to the protests shown in the meme. It’s absurd to compare the two, and not because of the violence that occurs at them. The reason the type of action shown in the image can be impactful is because there have specific goals and targets in contrast to what amount to an awareness campaign or parade.
If you go your whole life hearing it’s your god given right to have all the privilege and comfort you have (which is still a pittance in comparison to the rich but more than the people exploited to provide cheap goods) it’s hard to risk them.
I’m tired of the idea that looting stores and burning public buildings is an effective way to protest.
Most protests in Europe are also legal events. You ask for permit to march through a city. Only in some places rioters started destroying things. So far peaceful protests in Spain forced government to pass housing laws requested by people and call snap elections while all riots in France achieved is curfew.
Spain has a left wing government (the last time I looked at least) they play by the rules it seems (people ask, government provide as it can).
In France the right have sold out the country to the rich, more or less stole the prime ministers seat (after the snap elections it should have gone to the left, surprise surprise it didn’t) , they couldn’t care less about housing prices and so on.
So when you say france only obtained a curfew you show that you don’t understand those two countries political landscapes.
French gvt just offered a rework on university selections which is one of the students demands, and more space in unis for more students, which is also something demanded.
So what’s your deal, lay back on the floor and do nothing?
Yes, they will gradually change university selection. Elections are in May, Macron is basically saying “the next person will do something about it, trust me”.
What they should have done? I would say same thing as in Serbia: organize, mobilize, build support for people they want to see leading the country and get them elected. Burning schools and public buildings achieves nothing.
It’s sad that people no longer understand the difference between working towards some goal and violent lashing out. Hopefully lemmy is just an echo chamber fetishizing violence and most people are smarter than that. Hopefully we will see more countries follow Spanish example than the French one.
Oh so you’re one of those people. You think you are 100% right, and absolutely nothing will change your mind.
No need to discuss further, because you are just changing your tube to any new information that contradicts what you said before. For example if I say we already do mobilise, build support to elect Glucksman, you will only spew some other bs.
I genuinely do not understand this level of delusion…
Look, these protests are ineffective. Period. They’re nothing more than photo ops for social media. I don’t care if they’re happening everyday and the news isn’t reporting, they are not doing anything to alleviate any of the issues this country is facing.
I mean sure, ignore the protests from earlier this year where millions turned out across the nation, but sure…
Sorry to comment twice. But are you actually real? Like a human with breath and a beating heart? You don’t fundamentally understand that difference here? These people are fighting, the “demonstrations” in America have had zero bite, and any real fight in them has been squashed by their own people. You HAVE to see that.
L the fuck M A O
And did what? They didn’t disrupt anything. Parades on weekends are good for raising awareness, I’m not going to say they are useless. But they are fundamentally different from the other examples given.
Gotten shot and killed by lowest-bidder wannabe cops, who faced zero consequences. And our wannabe dictator said there would be no consequences for killing protesters. The reality is living conditions aren’t bad enough yet for most people to be willing to risk that.
So as it turns out, violence and fear tactics do work…
I’ve often been surprised at how living in America is perceived by the world. I’ve met a lot of people from all over the world, and while some have actually spent enough time here to understand the good and the bad. The rest who have not seem to believe in the shiny veneer that we export in our movies and television.
We are absolute wage slaves here. We are one missed paycheck from homelessness. But sure, blame the slaves for not overthrowing their owners.
I dont understand the logic though so please help me here. I have lived in the US and do have a good idea of how shitty things are (or were even back then). Things will not improve by inaction and are objectively getting worse. So yes, you risk a lot by acting but if you dont your life will continue to get worse and you’ll end up homeless anyway. Or worse.
No one is coming to save you. You live in the most powerful country in the world. Nobody is going to come in and liberate you. Your only option is to save yourself.
Nobody is claiming it will be easy, simple, or clean. But what other option is left? This is why the rest of us are baffled. Especially since the US has built up the reputation of having a rebellious spirit. Where is that spirit now?
I can make this simple: would you be the first to step in front of the firing squad when you have no idea if others will join you in rushing it?
We are not a united people here.
This might be it, because you do pay change for the better with blood, the history is filled with it. The army is brought in, it goes overboard and they open fire on protesters, in every country everywhere throughout history, before people realise what’s happening.
Good luck Americans, this seems to be your turn.
I know that. No one is saying you as an individual need to do this right now. We are saying you need to organize. I think this is a cultural misunderstanding.
When I say ‘you’ I am not referring to an individual. Im referring to you as a people. Maybe that misunderstanding is evidence of the hyper individualism your country has subtly snuck into your lives that prevents you (again a collective you) from doing so.
What did you think I meant by, “we are not a united people”?
You can’t organize peace with people who idealize a fascist society
I mean sure, ignore the protests from earlier this year where millions turned out across the nation, but sure…
You dont need everyone to mount a resistance. Why does it have to be all or nothing? And who said you had to organize peace with fascists?
Yeah, because they’re all too busy enacting fascism in their own country to do anything about the growing US threat except lick boots. Save us? Lmao you better be thinking about saving yourself once the consequences start rolling in.
Strategically, the best option other nations have to solve the American Problem is to prepare to weather the storm and let the country collapse by itself.
Historically what’s going on now with the US is a pretty straightforward “fall of the Empire” scenario (the biggest Empires invariably fall from internal problems as the generations that created the Empire are replaced by generations which know nothing more than wealth extraction) and interfering with that is a great way to be targetted as a scapegoat by the falling empire’s elites and suffer the side-effects of that empire’s death throes.
Looking from the outside, even if Trump is stopped, the problem will at best be delayed since the other party of the Power Duopoly that controls America is also deeply corrupt and done their part in the decay of that country for the last couple of decades (by weakening unions, deregulating Finance, unconditionally saving big companies, having Financial and Economic policies which reward Rentierism above Work, and so on) - Trump is not the malaise that’s killing America, he’s a symptom of that malaise and removing him will not solve the problem, will not stop another one like him to take over in the future and will not alter the trendof decay, only the speed of it.
As for the idea that Fascism is taking over in other countries, well, the rest is well behind the US in it and it’s exactly the point of the OP that people in other countries are already starting to push against it, well before it gets to the level seen in the US of jackboots (for the US that would be ICE) going around arbitrarilly arresting and even killing people.
Seriously. The global ultra rich are all working from the same basic playbook. It’s just happening here first due to the extreme concentration of wealth.
We are thinking about that. In fact, as per OPs post, many are acting on it.
No, I meant this part:
“No one is coming to save you” is such a petty, disgusting thing to say when the people you’re looking down on are being turned into the cogs of a machine that has the entire world in its sights. The world needs to save itself from us.
You are wage slaves who have a higher standard of living than the other wage slaves that are exploited in order to enable the availability of cheap consumer goods which keep the people docile.
This is about the English (and written in 1882) but now also applies to the USA:
This is an expert from Lenin: Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism which I think should be read prior to Settlers if only to disarm the reader from defensiveness. Sakai didn’t invent the idea of the bourgeoisie proletariat, he was building on the ideas of others.
The Chinese aren’t protesting either. For similar reasons too.
I’m not sure the connection? (Genuine)
They’re some of that forced slave labor making the goods that the Americans are wage slaves to consume.
Yeah, in America control is done with Circus & Bread, with the “Circus” being not just Entertainment (which includes “Faux News”) but also hyper-consumerism, whilst the control via “Bread” being with things like Private Healtcare and Student Loans.
People run around happily being shafted (and not even in a good, sexy way) as long as they have the latest smartphone and claim they pay much less tax than Europe whilst paying for the by far most expensive Healthcare and Higher Education in the World (both in average being actually worse - worst healthcare outcomes and most universities also worst - than in other countries).
How many Americans are actually politically aware and willing to fight for their rights?!
Mind you, some of this shit has been exported and at least here in Europe adopted to quite an extent, though clearly nowhere as much as in the US, though not for lack of trying.
Oh, I see.
I don’t think the US can be said to be exerting imperialist power over the Chinese though. China is probably the place least vulnerable to the US trade sanctions, for example.
Imperialism is the export of capital and the import of resources, profit from capital and labour.
I’d rather have less buying power to buy useless shit I don’t need than to be one paycheck away from homelessness
Protests are not the only option, but when asked why Americans are not making meaningful resistance the argument always boils down to: We have protests! Or We can’t protest!
Perhaps the most cursory look at why these actions are successful in different countries is worth a gander. It’s not that France couldn’t crush every protest with their military.
The difference is the US 100% will and won’t even apologize for it. Then the
stateoligarch run media will say they were “Terrorists”. Hell, the black lives matters protests in Oregon they spent weeks showing the “devastation” the protesters caused, it was like one square block and they had police dressing like protesters instigating the violence so they could disappear people.News are circling around the 3% (some are allegedly undercover cops, some are from fascist groups, and more ofc.) that break things, so yeah France is doing the same thing. No talk about why, only about that poor person that got their window smashed. 24/7.
Mainstream media are doing exactly the same in France and they all belong to, oh wait, some right wing billionaire.
It’s almost like someone somewhere is showing the user manual to the others.
Edit: It’s even worse than that. They are saying all the bad guys are extreme leftist from LFI (the most successful left party), gouvernement is somewhat implying the same and some officials even said they should remove this party from power and the upcoming presidential election. They are trying to make the opposition illegal and pave the way for the Fascist. It’s a fucking shit show, of course we need to riot and burn the system, that’s the only thing they are afraid of.
are motherfuckers in the us still not aware of trump???
Lol
But a genuine comment because people think I’m a big meanie:
It’s helpful to know that folks aren’t alone and also helpful for orgs who are already doing things to improve the material conditions of their community to get some publicity and maybe some new helping hands.
Maybe then america will realize they have power, and the revolution might not be exactly the same as their last one
it’s also helpful to fight against tyranny though
I mean this in the least antagonist way possible: I don’t think anything I said excludes fighting tyranny.
then… go fight tyranny then?
I think you might be misunderstanding my comments or maybe I’m misunderstanding yours because I am very lost.
I added the “protests aren’t totally useless” thing as a way to combat defensiveness after I replied to the top level comment comparing recent US protests (such as No Kings) to the protests shown in the meme. It’s absurd to compare the two, and not because of the violence that occurs at them. The reason the type of action shown in the image can be impactful is because there have specific goals and targets in contrast to what amount to an awareness campaign or parade.
what specific goals though?
I think theyre already aware. They just wont do anything of substance to stop it.
If you go your whole life hearing it’s your god given right to have all the privilege and comfort you have (which is still a pittance in comparison to the rich but more than the people exploited to provide cheap goods) it’s hard to risk them.
I’m so tired of this idea that these sparse, scheduled, legal events are considered protests.
I’m tired of the idea that looting stores and burning public buildings is an effective way to protest.
Most protests in Europe are also legal events. You ask for permit to march through a city. Only in some places rioters started destroying things. So far peaceful protests in Spain forced government to pass housing laws requested by people and call snap elections while all riots in France achieved is curfew.
Spain has a left wing government (the last time I looked at least) they play by the rules it seems (people ask, government provide as it can).
In France the right have sold out the country to the rich, more or less stole the prime ministers seat (after the snap elections it should have gone to the left, surprise surprise it didn’t) , they couldn’t care less about housing prices and so on.
So when you say france only obtained a curfew you show that you don’t understand those two countries political landscapes.
The fight goes on ✊🏼
What else did they gain? After the riots support Le Pen grew. You really think this is good for the left and our fight?
It’s just the beginning.
French gvt just offered a rework on university selections which is one of the students demands, and more space in unis for more students, which is also something demanded.
So what’s your deal, lay back on the floor and do nothing?
Yes, they will gradually change university selection. Elections are in May, Macron is basically saying “the next person will do something about it, trust me”.
What they should have done? I would say same thing as in Serbia: organize, mobilize, build support for people they want to see leading the country and get them elected. Burning schools and public buildings achieves nothing.
It’s sad that people no longer understand the difference between working towards some goal and violent lashing out. Hopefully lemmy is just an echo chamber fetishizing violence and most people are smarter than that. Hopefully we will see more countries follow Spanish example than the French one.
Oh so you’re one of those people. You think you are 100% right, and absolutely nothing will change your mind.
No need to discuss further, because you are just changing your tube to any new information that contradicts what you said before. For example if I say we already do mobilise, build support to elect Glucksman, you will only spew some other bs.
No need to respond.
which sparse ones are you referencing? It seems like you are wondering why CNBC isn’t showing you all the local protests even in conservative towns?
I genuinely do not understand this level of delusion…
Look, these protests are ineffective. Period. They’re nothing more than photo ops for social media. I don’t care if they’re happening everyday and the news isn’t reporting, they are not doing anything to alleviate any of the issues this country is facing.
Yeah obviously they haven’t successfully overthrown Trump yet. What is delusional about me telling you the revolution will not be televised?
The anti-US psy-op has been very effective here
America is doing a very effective anti-US psy-op by being fucking terrible.