I have eyes that can see that myself and many people around me are obviously materially less safe than we were under any previous president in our lifetimes?
Escalated in Palestine? What the fuck are you smoking? The majority of this round of the genocide took place under Bidens close watch, lol.
Let’s also not forget kamala campaigned with Liz cheny, and promised to have the most lethal military in the world. She was either planning on attacking several small countries, or escalating with Iran, Russia or China, as is American tradition of bloodshed and destruction.
How many boats of civilians did Binlden order to be sunk? How many heads of state did he kidnap or assassinate in wars of choice? How many American cities did he occupy with military units? How many of his political opponents did he have the justice department charge with baseless crimes? How many Nazis did he dine with?
The Dems piss me off, but saying the only reasons to say they’re no different than the Republicans are:
Being a fucking idiot ;or
Atremptingto prop up the GOP by convincing leftists not to vote against them.
The last time a President wasn’t a Democrat or a Republican was elected was 1848. But neither the Democratic or Republican parties resemble at all what they were in 1852.
You don’t change the 2-party system, you change the parties themselves.
If just 1% of the green party voters in Florida had voted for Gore, George W Bush would never have been President and we wouldn’t have gone to war in Iraq or opened a torture camp in Cuba.
Neither, unfortunately, but we have a two-party system, and one side is openly fascist, so I would advise that anyone who doesn’t like fascism vote for the other non-fascist (arguably less-fascist) party.
I don’t like voting for the “lesser evil” and wish things were better, but voting for unviable candidates out of a sense of blind idealism is worse, because it empowers the most regressive movements to succeed.
We don’t currently live in a real democracy, but we have a chance to turn things around. If you decide to give up and let the fascists win, you’re one of the bad guys.
Sure, that’s obvious to you and me, as seasoned internet users. But we can’t expect lawyers and career politicians to understand such things. They must be ignoring it by accident.
The reality is choosing between the two major parties is choosing hurting now or hurting later. Neither will actually do any good. It’s pointless to vote for anyone other than a 3rd party, at least then you’re not voting for evil.
The reality is choosing between the two major parties is choosing hurting now or hurting later.
False.
They’ll both hurt now but one will clearly hurt less.
One will also do more good than the other.
3rd party during the final election won’t get anything accomplished, because that third party literally has no representation in lower positions of government.
If you have a path to change the system of governance, that could be worth pursuing. But voting isn’t a path to that - just a form of harm reduction within the system.
You still buy groceries - even though you may hate the process of handing over your net worth for something that helps sustain your life and want to change that.
Part of building a viable alternative is getting enough votes for consistant ballot access and other resources that are afforded by default to the two primary parties. Winning comes in degrees.
Yet Jill Stein vanishes for four years between Presidential elections and does absolutely nothing to support a third party coalition at the state and local level.
And she somehow deserves your vote for simply not being a D or R? Yeah nah.
Your unawareness concerning her activites during non-election years sounds like a you problem. She is a regular presence at major state-level annual Green conventions.
Idk about your state, but that is the case here in MD with Greens and the Working Class Party. Also true for the Working Families Party in other states. Presidential elections have a purpose in generating attention, though.
I’m not sure I fully understood that . But the first step in any change is ranked choice voting. If we had that then we could do three parties or more.
As it stands, we’ve devolved into a two-party system and neither party will give up control.
Okay let’s see. We have a large part of the population who just won’t vote. Voter apathy is real.
Of the Democrats and Republicans, you have about 2/3 of each party that are voting like it’s a sports team. They’ll never change and they’ll never think.
The thinking people who vote for each party understand that the third party has no chance and they’re trying to sway things generally in their direction.
So the third party victory plan, if I have it correct, is to overcome voter apathy, and also to sway some people who are voting like a sports team from both parties.
If that’s your plan for victory, then you don’t have a plan for victory. And you’re just wasting your vote.
Call me cynical, but I think third parties are funded by people outside the country to sway the election. Just like they only thaw out Jill Stein every 4 years to steal votes from the Democrats, and then they park her in a Russian freezer somewhere for the rest of the time.
Vote 3rd party, argue with dumbshits that refuse to vote third party because of their self defeating “they can’t win” Ouroboros and try and get them to see that the only reason they “can’t” win is because of that very attitude, but if they did get the votes they could, in fact, win. Y’know stuff like that.
The ONLY chance the US had for a third party was back when Teddy Roosevelt ran in the Bull Moose party. He was already a president with a major party and wanted another run but the party didn’t like his socialist agenda. (I’m simplifying)
If he would have won, we probably would still have a 2 party system. 1 of the parties would have adapted to the Bull Moose party.
We need to elect people that will support the change to RCV. Dems seem more favorable to this.
The problem is that you’re relying on “vote blue and hope they give us electoral reform out of the kindness of their hearts.” It’s not a real strategy. Dems have a clear incentive to not enact voting reform, because they survive off of being the lesser evil and effectively coercing people into voting for them. And if you say that we should vote for Dems conditionally to them (genuinely) supporting RCV, that’s one thing, but if you’re just supporting them regardless then any ideas you have about RCV are meaningless because in practice those ideas aren’t affecting your actions in any way.
It’s like seeing that your car won’t to start and thinking the solution is to drive it to the mechanic. The whole problem is that you can’t drive it anywhere. In the same way, the whole reason we need electoral reform is the same thing that prevents it from happening, that we don’t have any mechanism for advancing policy goals in the current system. You can’t rely on a broken system to fix itself.
What we need is to realize that the current system is FUBAR and organize non-electoral strategies (for example, strikes and demonstrations) to advance policy positions, and we need a dedicated party that’s focused on that strategy and able to lay out a clear platform to that end.
What’s your source for your claim that it is literally impossible for a third party to ever be viable again?
And if that is truly the case, we don’t even live in a democracy so why bother?
Personally I’ll keep voting for the best candidates I can while acknowledging that voting does almost nothing and doing everything I can outside of elections to make change happen.
Pro-trans? My nuts, they were pro trans when they could use that as a tool to get votes, then they dropped them like a stone the second trump won again to try and pull votes from the right. Same thing they’ve been doing with POCs since like the 70s, they don’t care they just want your votes to keep the insider trading machine rolling.
What’s more they (and by “they” I mean BoTh of them) actually have an incentive NOT to fix anything, at least not in any meaningful way, because if say, the Ds actually do get guns banned (or Rs and abortion, etc), then they can’t run on it again in the future and that’s one less wedge issue to indoctrinate you into the color cult with.
Which of the two major parties stands against capitalism again?
One of them is the “Openly advocates for billionaires” party and the other is the “Discretely advocates for billionaires” party.
One of the parties wants it regulated slightly. The other one would allow lead in baby formula if it increased profit.
So evil or, at best, diet evil? No thanks.
Which anti-capitalist third-party has even a 0.000001% chance of winning enough seats to be an impediment to Trump?
Why do you believe Trump losing the presidency will change anything?
Voting blue donkey slows the slide, it doesn’t stop it. Remember they are the pall in the system
I have eyes that can see that myself and many people around me are obviously materially less safe than we were under any previous president in our lifetimes?
And nothing has changed for the brown children in the middle east. Isn’t that strange?
Things have absolutely gotten worse there.
How so?
Iran has been attacked. Worst case scenario, Dems wouldn’t have escalated in Palestine.
Escalated in Palestine? What the fuck are you smoking? The majority of this round of the genocide took place under Bidens close watch, lol.
Let’s also not forget kamala campaigned with Liz cheny, and promised to have the most lethal military in the world. She was either planning on attacking several small countries, or escalating with Iran, Russia or China, as is American tradition of bloodshed and destruction.
Yes I can also see the effects of capitalism on our lives. My question is about Trump (Who isn’t even eligible for reelection btw)
Trump was already voted out once; and in the intervening four years the Democrats proved themselves to be incapable of impeding Trump.
How many boats of civilians did Binlden order to be sunk? How many heads of state did he kidnap or assassinate in wars of choice? How many American cities did he occupy with military units? How many of his political opponents did he have the justice department charge with baseless crimes? How many Nazis did he dine with?
The Dems piss me off, but saying the only reasons to say they’re no different than the Republicans are:
Being a fucking idiot ;or
Atremptingto prop up the GOP by convincing leftists not to vote against them.
If the goal is to change the system then voting for either one will never get you to your goal.
I want the current 2 party system to die. And that can only happen if a third party wins. That’s in my opinion the highest priority item.
The last time a President wasn’t a Democrat or a Republican was elected was 1848. But neither the Democratic or Republican parties resemble at all what they were in 1852.
You don’t change the 2-party system, you change the parties themselves.
“We can change the Nazi party from the inside, guys!”
How many brown children did Bidens bombs blow up? Believe it or not, more than Trump!
Which third party is against capitalism? Legit curious.
The Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL)
There are a few. Off the top of my head the Green Party is the biggest one, and the Labor Party is having a resurgence.
If just 1% of the green party voters in Florida had voted for Gore, George W Bush would never have been President and we wouldn’t have gone to war in Iraq or opened a torture camp in Cuba.
Isn’t it great those people voted for Nader.
If Gore had done just a little more to earn 1% of the vote, wouldn’t that have been great?
Besides. Gore won the election and was denied the presidency. That was the day democracy died.
Just make sure that when you’re candidate wins you go to brunch or the fascists will hear your protest and you’ll get fascism again.
Neither, unfortunately, but we have a two-party system, and one side is openly fascist, so I would advise that anyone who doesn’t like fascism vote for the other non-fascist (arguably less-fascist) party.
I don’t like voting for the “lesser evil” and wish things were better, but voting for unviable candidates out of a sense of blind idealism is worse, because it empowers the most regressive movements to succeed.
We don’t currently live in a real democracy, but we have a chance to turn things around. If you decide to give up and let the fascists win, you’re one of the bad guys.
We need Ranked Choice Voting and Mixed Member Proportional districting to reduce the need for strategic voting.
Sure, that’s obvious to you and me, as seasoned internet users. But we can’t expect lawyers and career politicians to understand such things. They must be ignoring it by accident.
If the choice is fascist or less fascist then neither is worth voting for.
People will hold a vote to see if everyone gets punched in the face three times or once. Would you not vote for only one punch?
…because I don’t want anyone to get punched? Because I refuse to legitimize a system built on punching people?
Besides I never said anything about not voting.
Honestly there’s more punchees than punchers, we can take them.
Your outcomes are between the candidate who will hurt you and yours less vs the candidate who will hurt you and yours most.
If you’re lucky, choosing to not vote will still lead to the candidate that will hurt you and yours less.
Be as pedantic as you want: this is the reality of it.
Do whatever outside of the election season to change that but once the final polls happen, those are the only choices you have.
It’s like when you get beat up and you’re on the ground. You try to protect your vitals and hope you’ll survive to fight another day.
Not voting is idiotic and lazy.
I never said anything about not voting.
The reality is choosing between the two major parties is choosing hurting now or hurting later. Neither will actually do any good. It’s pointless to vote for anyone other than a 3rd party, at least then you’re not voting for evil.
False.
If you have a path to change the system of governance, that could be worth pursuing. But voting isn’t a path to that - just a form of harm reduction within the system.
You still buy groceries - even though you may hate the process of handing over your net worth for something that helps sustain your life and want to change that.
Voting is still worth doing, but certainly not all one should do.
Which third party has a chance to actually win or do something and isn’t just throwing your vote out?
Part of building a viable alternative is getting enough votes for consistant ballot access and other resources that are afforded by default to the two primary parties. Winning comes in degrees.
Yet Jill Stein vanishes for four years between Presidential elections and does absolutely nothing to support a third party coalition at the state and local level.
And she somehow deserves your vote for simply not being a D or R? Yeah nah.
She basically works for Russia.
Your unawareness concerning her activites during non-election years sounds like a you problem. She is a regular presence at major state-level annual Green conventions.
If that was really the strategy they would start with local elections.
Idk about your state, but that is the case here in MD with Greens and the Working Class Party. Also true for the Working Families Party in other states. Presidential elections have a purpose in generating attention, though.
You got me to learn something new today!
I’m not sure I fully understood that . But the first step in any change is ranked choice voting. If we had that then we could do three parties or more.
As it stands, we’ve devolved into a two-party system and neither party will give up control.
All of them, complain about non-voters not voters.
Okay let’s see. We have a large part of the population who just won’t vote. Voter apathy is real.
Of the Democrats and Republicans, you have about 2/3 of each party that are voting like it’s a sports team. They’ll never change and they’ll never think.
The thinking people who vote for each party understand that the third party has no chance and they’re trying to sway things generally in their direction.
So the third party victory plan, if I have it correct, is to overcome voter apathy, and also to sway some people who are voting like a sports team from both parties.
If that’s your plan for victory, then you don’t have a plan for victory. And you’re just wasting your vote.
Call me cynical, but I think third parties are funded by people outside the country to sway the election. Just like they only thaw out Jill Stein every 4 years to steal votes from the Democrats, and then they park her in a Russian freezer somewhere for the rest of the time.
“They won’t actually fix anything but they might win” is an unbelievably terrible argument
No. It’s “which of these two horrible choices might we influence to make some progress”
You don’t get a third choice for the big things. It’s mathematically and literally impossible.
Social reality isn’t tethered to logic. A mind virus can open the possibility for a third party victory, math be damned.
We’re already past the first step where the general population is tired of the two current options.
Yeah, but hope is not a strategy. What’s the path to making that happen?
Vote 3rd party, argue with dumbshits that refuse to vote third party because of their self defeating “they can’t win” Ouroboros and try and get them to see that the only reason they “can’t” win is because of that very attitude, but if they did get the votes they could, in fact, win. Y’know stuff like that.
You’ve just described why they can’t win. Because people don’t move in coordinated ways in large numbers.
“So having said that, my advice is to move in coordinated ways in large numbers. Vote blue no matter who!”
…are you trying to say that it’s mathematically impossible for a third party to be viable?
Because wow, the entire western world outside the US would like to have a word.
The ONLY chance the US had for a third party was back when Teddy Roosevelt ran in the Bull Moose party. He was already a president with a major party and wanted another run but the party didn’t like his socialist agenda. (I’m simplifying)
If he would have won, we probably would still have a 2 party system. 1 of the parties would have adapted to the Bull Moose party.
We need to elect people that will support the change to RCV. Dems seem more favorable to this.
The problem is that you’re relying on “vote blue and hope they give us electoral reform out of the kindness of their hearts.” It’s not a real strategy. Dems have a clear incentive to not enact voting reform, because they survive off of being the lesser evil and effectively coercing people into voting for them. And if you say that we should vote for Dems conditionally to them (genuinely) supporting RCV, that’s one thing, but if you’re just supporting them regardless then any ideas you have about RCV are meaningless because in practice those ideas aren’t affecting your actions in any way.
It’s like seeing that your car won’t to start and thinking the solution is to drive it to the mechanic. The whole problem is that you can’t drive it anywhere. In the same way, the whole reason we need electoral reform is the same thing that prevents it from happening, that we don’t have any mechanism for advancing policy goals in the current system. You can’t rely on a broken system to fix itself.
What we need is to realize that the current system is FUBAR and organize non-electoral strategies (for example, strikes and demonstrations) to advance policy positions, and we need a dedicated party that’s focused on that strategy and able to lay out a clear platform to that end.
What’s your source for your claim that it is literally impossible for a third party to ever be viable again?
And if that is truly the case, we don’t even live in a democracy so why bother?
Personally I’ll keep voting for the best candidates I can while acknowledging that voting does almost nothing and doing everything I can outside of elections to make change happen.
My source is the history of the US.
Vote for who you want and I’ll vote the same.
The history of the US that has included third parties?
Yeah, I’m going to go ahead and not believe your claims. You seem totally unable to defend them.
At any rate I’m glad we’re both voting. It’s the bare minimum we need to do.
You mean where they have ranked choice and a completely different voting system which changes the math?
Oh is it time for “Both Sides” already? Forgot to mark my calendar
Sorry if reality offends you
It’s always time for bOtH sIdEs, because BoTh keep bOtHiNg.
Yes, i know one is pro-church and the other is pro-trans.
My problem is that they are BoTh anti-union and pro-Epstein. That’s the rub.
Pro-trans? My nuts, they were pro trans when they could use that as a tool to get votes, then they dropped them like a stone the second trump won again to try and pull votes from the right. Same thing they’ve been doing with POCs since like the 70s, they don’t care they just want your votes to keep the insider trading machine rolling.
What’s more they (and by “they” I mean BoTh of them) actually have an incentive NOT to fix anything, at least not in any meaningful way, because if say, the Ds actually do get guns banned (or Rs and abortion, etc), then they can’t run on it again in the future and that’s one less wedge issue to indoctrinate you into the color cult with.